Avatar Nutrition

[augeleven]

but I get the feeling we have stuff in common. Life is too goddamn short for us to have unimportant stuff taking up space in our head that we could be using for more important stuff like family and fun.

Yeah, but the eating piece is probably important. My waistline is up over 40” now and 40 is around the corner. Also I have young kids. I don’t binge eat around them, but they’re not stupid. The premise of my question is “Will using a subscription app help me with adherence issues?” I think I need a plan to address that: Don’t laugh (ok, you can laugh...) but I think I remember listening to a Barbell Logic podcast (shut up) where they talked about an LP of eating habits. Like for me, maybe step 1 isn’t subscribe to Avatar nutrition, but just stop popping a cup of popcorn in oil around 1am. The trouble is incremental stuff gets hard to stick to, because the results are so small and/or hard to track.

[BenM]

@augeleven yeah, point taken - it's important in the context of health, for sure. And I also know what you mean re kids. I've been trying really really hard not to let my issues rub off on mine.

Not laughing at all - eating 'appropriately' (in whatever shape that takes) is a skill. When we're kids it comes naturally but somehow as adults we find ways to muck it up and have to relearn it. You don't start learning maths with algebra though....

An app might help with awareness, but only you can really decide if it'll help with adherence. I'm biased obviously because for me tracking ultimately felt restrictive and unwieldy - I started with making sure I ate 3-4 meals and 2-3 snacks every day at similar times and tried to be consistent. Baby steps.

[TheGloriousW]

@augeleven

For me:
Step 1: Get up earlier. This help me get in bed earlier which eliminated late night snacking.
Step 2: Quit beer. Eliminated a lot of snacking, eliminated downing 500 - 800 calories a bottle (and it was rarely just one), and helped with Step 1. Without doing this, anything else would be pointless. Beer consumption and other crappy snacking made me fat over years even though I exercised.

Next... My eating and diet was OK (without the beer). At first I lost weight, then the weight steadied and I recomped, then I stalled. I tried MyFitnesspal (free version) for a very short time, but I found it cluttered and a PIA. My recomp became very slow and my lifts were all stalling. Weight static.

Step 3: Avatar Nutrition. I managed to get to about 20% BF on my own, but I had been stalled for too long and my exercise has been SUPER consistent so I needed to do something on the calorie intake side of the equation. Not because I eat poorly or too much, but I needed to undo all the weight I gained. This lead me to the revelations below, which have been holding me back between Steps 2 and 3.

- After Step 2 I have 'generally' been eating the correct number of calories to cut, but the wrong macros. My protein needed to double and carbs needed to a halved.
- My adherence on weekends was poor. As in, too few calories poor. About 1/3 of the proteins I needed. I was too occupied with other stuff to eat. This crashed my gains and dulled my training.

Notes:
- Dinner in my house is one of two choices 'take it' or 'leave it' (a rule I helped set). I like that the tool is flexible so that there aren't and special meals being made. I just adjust my portion to fit.
- Breakfast usually includes 10 oz. of egg whites which helps net me the protein goal without adding carbs or fat.
- Usually two whey or protein drinks a day sometimes three.
- I am not into denial. The tool just shows what the snack or whatever it is will cost me. Sometimes I don't care, sometimes I don't eat it. 100% adherence, not likely. Better than what I was doing before, sure.
- As I got used to it, I could plan for whatever excess I was probably going to have; dessert, glass of wine, ham and cheese croissant, whatever. This happens far more than me blowing my macros.
- I pay ZERO attention to meal timing. I eat the snack when I want it, the lunch when I am ready, and dinner when it is served (or I make it).
- Nearly instantly my joints started feeling better, enough protein I guess.
- My cut is not drastic. I don't go to bed hungry.

This is just my experience and I hope any of it helps.

[OrderInChaos]

This was disgustingly long with quotes and lists, so using a spoiler banner to keep things parsimonious.

...but there is definitely more evidence emerging that for some people/personality types it can lead to psychological issues/disordered eating too. Helms has raised it a bunch of times, actually Brian Alsruhe even mentioned in a recent video that that's why he doesn't track, he knows it would mess with his head.

I'm glad someone like setyourmacros.com too - I completely forgot that I'd made that! I did that (when I was tracking) because for me, I found Avatar wasn't quite flexible enough - I couldn't set my protein high enough, or go low carb enough (if I chose to do that). Avatar (at the time) also wasn't great for say, a mini cut or a PSMF where you wanted to lose a whole bunch of weight fast (like 2-4 weeks) - I couldn't set calories quite low enough. So I made it as a bit of a next step up for people who are a bit more advanced, and are comfortable setting their own macro targets but needed an easy to use calculator.

...after a while, I got sick of seeing 'how do you hit your protein target?? it's so much!!' and 'I have x grams of carbs left for the day, what do I eat?' type questions every. goddamn. day....

Ben, didn't realize you made setyourmacros! Just found the link in a saved folder in my bookmarks - thank you! I think it's the most valuable thing/feature, for me and my goals, derived from the Avatar side of things.

A monetizeable, awesome idea that I lack the skills to build up right now:

Code: Select all

>Adjust sliders to desired numbers (or plug in your info and let the app set best guesses for you
->In a column named proteins, list or select 3-5 proteins you want 85%+ of your meals to base around for the next fortnight
->Repeat carbs, fats, cheatty snacks 
->Generate 2 weeks worth meal plan and shop list with macros +/- 5% of your target 
->Compliant, y/n? Loss/gain? 
->Suggest changes or static
->Repeat until goal achieved

I do a long, by hand, legal pad driven version of that now but without the sliders (figured out me numbers a while back and am doing alright with that)

Thanks, gents! I really appreciate your input.
BenM , I’m definitely going to take you up on that offer and pick your brain once things settle down around here.

I like the idea of IIFYM in general, but I like OrderInChaos’s idea of using RPs templates to build weekly eating plans.

Highly recommend the 2 week trial... if you only like the planning piece and are reasonably compliant without a tracker or with free MFP, it's enough of a foundation IMO to get rolling.

Two notes about RP - they have fancy sliders that are useful if you, say, miss a meal and don't wanna do math to figure out a portion size change on your dinner to make up the difference. Also, they basically don't count the "other two macros" of lean proteins and most fibrous carbs, so whatever numbers RP app gives you are probably an undershoot of what you'd be eating on Avatar which is fully transparent and meant to track everything to a tee. That's to encourage eating more whole food and less junk, but not outright ban the latter (you can eat much more filling food, say, 93% beef, baked potatoes, and tons of greens vs. a packaged meal with cheeses, tortillas...beyond being more satiating foods in general, you'll probably be allowed 65/85/25 P/C/F in the whole meal versus exact numbers of 50/75/20 in the packaged one, app assumes you'll be fuller and if it's a pattern in your eating to over-serve whole foods the app just drops your macros after 2 weeks anyway...

Silly Diet StuffShow

I think a really easy approach without all these apps and numbers would be:

• 1 Make a list of your top 5 favorite protein sources, top 5 carb sources, top 5 snacky foods
• 2 Pick a calorie target reasonable for your goal based on BW, act'y, age
• 3 Set protein to approximate LBM in pounds, or higher depending on your own preferences of protein foods
• 4 Start with carbs at 1.5xLBM, add more here if you need it to fill out calories from 2 above
• 5 Don't worry about fats - I use two different butters (Kerrygold Irish for some things rarely and a butter+greek yogurt spread for toast/morning items - never more than 1 label-size serving per meal keeps me from going batshit on it), and sautee in whatever oils. Intentionally chose mainly lean meats in step 1 like breast, 93% Turkey or 91% beef, but also brisket and pork loin... I never worry about that modest level of fat TBH
• 6 Create meals by dividing your #2-4 macros in 3, 4, or 4 + snack(s)... mine is 35g P, 55g C
• 7 Go down the list in 1, figure out both raw and cooked portion sizes for 35g P
• 8 Repeat 7 for carbs
• 9 Rotate meals around in a way satisfying to you (this is what you have to do manually in RP anyway - it's nice for doing the math once you know which meal is which items, but doesn't select for you) - mine is Breakfast: 2% cottage + Bran OR whole eggs + whites, english muffins, Lunch (at work): Chicken or 91% Ground Beef/Turkey, Rice or Pasta, Mexican themed or Italian sauces, beans/chickpeas/etc. optional, side of greens or broccoli or..., Dinner: Fattier, whole cuts of beef or pork + potatoes or breads, lots of sauteed or grilled or steamed whole veg, Snacks: Any non-banana fruits, nuts, huge servings of sugar-free Jello, etc...
• 10 Comply with what you make here 90% of meals (counting snacks), so 4 meals/day = 28/week = 2-3 free-ish meals. Try to avoid multiple free meals same day
• 11 Make your 'cheat' meal/free meals conform to the macros you figured out in 6 | +/- 10g of C, up to +10-15g of P are totally fine - drop the one meal you cheated during, say lunch, but don't modify the rest of the day just for that
• 12 If this isn't working or isn't working consistently, whip out MFP and don't change the meals, but make sure to weigh stuff precisely to see if you're either overserving certain items, or if the switch from one week of chicken breast + 93% turkey to a second week of brisket + whole bird is enough to be screwing up hypothetical deficits

^Best tools I've found to encourage compliance with the above are:
1) an InstantPot
2) a sous-vide (I have a Joule but would buy an Anova given the knowledge now)
3) good set of tupper/prep ware for work meals
4) 2-3 good pans
5) 2-3 good knives
6) liquid smoke, MSG, chipotle canned in adobo sauce, a good pesto, a good marinara, Frank's, those popcorn Ranch "0" (~5-15) calorie shakers
7) a large enough lunchpail to accommodate 2/3 of the day's food and ice packs
8) a whiteboard, Excel, or legal pad with columns to plot out the next 7-14 days of food, cross out as you go

Sorry for the excess length, but hope some of it is useful.

[OrderInChaos]

...
I tried MyFitnesspal (free version) for a very short time, but I found it cluttered and a PIA. My recomp became very slow and my lifts were all stalling. Weight static.

Glorious, awesome post in total. Adding some comments because you echoed thoughts I've had.

@augeleven, I think free-MFP may be the most cluttered, shitty app to encourage compliance if that's where you struggle. I'd rather keep a Google Sheets with macros of my most common serving sizes of most common foods and track by hand... (ahem... who does that? lol). Avatar, even in the browser on a shitty smartphone, is much nicer overall in that sense. The RP app is pretty pro and not disorganized as far as UX/UI.

... my exercise has been SUPER consistent so I needed to do something on the calorie intake side of the equation...

@augeleven, this is where I think your cardio focus could give you a serious edge to meet body comp goals without inducing massive appetite. Solid lifting sked, eating is stable and good, but plateauing? Start a 5k plan and do the just add 10% mpw thing or something lol

- I am not into denial. The tool just shows what the snack or whatever it will cost me. Sometimes I don't care, sometimes I don't eat it. 100% adherence, not likely. Better than what I was doing before, for sure.
- As I got used to it I could plan for whatever excess I was probably going to have; dessert, glass of wine, ham and cheese croissant, whatever. This happens far more than me blowing my macros.

I think this speaks to a mental strength on your part that many of us lack. Or that's my way of moralizing some neurological difference between folks, but either way I think this is where discrepancies occur between the "why don't people just track? Worked for me" crowd, and "every time I tracked I did well until I didn't then I went off the rails and was fatter than Day 0" folks. (Not trying to attribute the former attitude to you at all, Glorious... there are lots of folks who are super non-self aware about this sorta thing thankfully not on this site, haha)

The only time I've successfully figured out the bolded above is, gently adjusting the "indulgence" toward desired meal macros as described in my last post, and just mentally resetting. Sometimes the running total pie chart/circles in Avatar fucked with my head lol

- I pay ZERO attention to meal timing. I eat the snack when I want it, the lunch when I am ready, and dinner when it is served (or I make it).

This is an area where I can be really non-neurotic (like you in the line above) despite tracking it - I just make the conscious choice to ensure I eat a big breakfast and eat before being really hungry, because I know what "ghrelin/hormonal" hunger after accidentally IF'ing all day feels like, and that I have often fucked up right at that point in the past.

It's also where having planned, mostly prepared-in-advance, and all home made meals proves really helpful.

(I'll stop spamming the thread here, mods, sorry!)

[FredM]

but I get the feeling we have stuff in common. Life is too goddamn short for us to have unimportant stuff taking up space in our head that we could be using for more important stuff like family and fun.

Yeah, but the eating piece is probably important. My waistline is up over 40” now and 40 is around the corner. Also I have young kids. I don’t binge eat around them, but they’re not stupid. The premise of my question is “Will using a subscription app help me with adherence issues?” I think I need a plan to address that: Don’t laugh (ok, you can laugh...) but I think I remember listening to a Barbell Logic podcast (shut up) where they talked about an LP of eating habits. Like for me, maybe step 1 isn’t subscribe to Avatar nutrition, but just stop popping a cup of popcorn in oil around 1am. The trouble is incremental stuff gets hard to stick to, because the results are so small and/or hard to track.

I was fat my whole life (still kind of am) and 225 with probably >40" waist by the end of college. I made a decision to get healthy and mostly just will powered my way to 194 with "running" and inconsistent stupid sh** from Men's Health or P90x. I was still super unhappy with how I looked but at least I could run an 8 min mile and tell myself I was in ok shape. I couldn't really get better than that until I found barbells and made some more serious diet changes (and track things religiously on MFP or G. Nuckols diet spreadsheet). It was a pretty slow process but I got down to 181 before I was stuck again.

Then I had a kid.

Maybe there are people with willpower enough to eat little enough to lose weight, wake up to a screaming baby at 3am, and not pound some food. Or after 3 nights in a row of 3 hours of sleep not drink some form of alcohol while sitting in front of a tv to dull out the sound of your son crying bloody murder as you "sleep train" him. I'm not one of them.

I'm currently 173 and still losing weight and still not sleeping great. I don't track anything other than very rough calorie estimates and protein estimates in my head. I got here with a few "hacks."

People tell you to snack on carrots. Those people don't have kids. But it turns out Quest Protein Chips give my lizard brain a similar reprieve as real chips and are about 30% the calories and 20x the protein.

Replace beer with whiskey. I actually really love Irish whiskey it turns out and it takes me about 20x longer to drink it than equivalent beer for less calories.

Large variety of protein bars and whey. I've found the ones I think taste best and treat these like dessert. Whey pancake mixes have been a lifesaver too. My wife will even eat them.

Eat a significant amount of my veggies and fruit at night before bed. This takes some getting used to (lost sleep) but it's been worth it. I eat a bunch of berries in greek yogurt and half a bag of frozen vegetables while watching Netflix with my wife after we put the kid to bed. It's a crazy fiber bomb that means I'm definitely not hungry before going to bed and when I wake up at night/morning my stomach is usually too freaked out to ask for food (though when it does I eat Quest chips and a protein bar with fiber, which is 350 calories, 40g protein, and crazy filling.. I won't lose weight that day but I won't gain any back either).

TLDR;
If you've never tracked before you probably should try an app like Avatar or MFP for a while until you've adjusted your habits. Use those habit adjustments to find your own "hacks" that are sustainable after you stop using the app.

Good luck getting stronger though. I haven't really cracked that part of being a father yet. I don't think I get enough sleep even on calorie surplus to drive real muscle growth

[TheGloriousW]

@FredM

The sound of me googling 'Quest Protein Chips'. The sound of me adding them to Amazon cart. Ordering *click*.

Thanks for the tip.

BTW: Avatar just updated the interface and released an android app today.

[FredM]

@FredM

The sound of me googling 'Quest Protein Chips'. The sound of me adding them to Amazon cart. Ordering *click*.

Thanks for the tip.

BTW: Avatar just updated the interface and released an android app today.

NP. If you get bored with the default nacho cheese flavor, the chili lime and taco are my other go tos. I've tried about all the flavors -- tortilla style is best from a QC and taste perspective.

[JohnHelton]

Avatar just came out with the Android and iPhone app today. Still has some bugs (can't categorized food as a snack yet), but it is nice to have a real app rather than a web app.